War in response to (http://puremormonism.blogspot.com/2013/05/why-do-we-keep-celebrating-disobedience.html)
I've never been a fan of your blogs on war.I think that you've demonstrated your position and interpretation of the scriptures on the matter. You've done so eloquently. I take a slightly different view on the matter however.
There is no black and white on this issue. War is a byproduct of our existence. There was a war in heaven, which means, war has existed before we existed in a mortal state and it will continue to exist after our mortal state ends, it will exist in heaven and it will exist on Earth. It will continue to exist as long as there are those who would enslave others. What was the core of Satan's plan? That man would be enslaved and choice would not be present. What was the core of God's plan? That we would be free to choose. These 2 concepts are in direct conflict. And this is the core of the reason why any war is fought. Either slavers fighting over slaves or slaves fighting for their freedom.
Whether the conflict is with physical violence or not is irrelevant. The war of thought is as destructive and results in more loss of life then we can possible imagine.
Example: Indoctrinate generations to believe that abortion isn't murder and what have we done? We've allowed the murder of 332,278 in 2009, 333,964 in 2010 and the number keeps going up. In fact, Obama was BRAGGING about it during a speech at a planned parenthood convention.
Arguing that the physical locations of the wars make them unjust is a limited and literal interpretation of the scriptures. Which can and should be expanded upon and applied to the war of thought. Again, this is not a black and white issue, this is not something, that we in our limited understanding of both the motivations, commands and purpose behind which these wars were perpetrated could we possible claim to know God's will on the matter, nor the will, purpose and motivations of those who authorized the wars themselves. Do I agree with the wars? I would not answer yes or no to that. I don't have enough information to pass judgement. I would argue that NO ONE except God himself has sufficient knowledge to pass judgment on the justness of the wars that the US has been involved in the last 50 years. This, is why I am not a fan of this topic, to me, its generalized judgement of a highly complicated issue. It would require in depth understanding of not only all the wars themselves,but all the people involved on both sides.
I however, I do believe, that not fighting for the freedom of others when you yourself would fight for your own freedom is hypocritical and wicked. I also think not fighting for and defending your own freedom is a great wickedness. I think that there is good advice concerning when and how, but these things are logical supportable, not miraculously supported by God under specific conditions. Of course its better to defend then attack in almost every case. Of course its better to be agreeable, quiet and docile when you are surrounded by the enemy. Choosing to roll over and just die at another Man's hands because you abhor violence and pretending you are being Christ like is nonsense. You are being selfish, you refuse to lift a finger because you've taken a myopic view of violence instead of a discerning one.
Finally, if a man sues you for you coat give him your cloak? why does that mean that if a wicked man comes to me demanding my coat I should give him more then he demands? Instead...If I am free and another man is not how can I give him anything but freedom as well and not fulfill that request by Christ? What greater charity can I give a man but his freedom? What more God like and Christ like action can I do? Christ's resurrection and his sacrifice, how were those not Christ giving us our freedom? Freedom from death, freedom from sin? What then, more can we give all the children of God on this earth but freedom?
LDSPER responds:
you're making several assumptions here--
you don't believe it is right to judge the wars America has been involved in for 50 years, in which untold numbers of 'innocents' have died (including babies and the unborn), but you do believe abortion is wrong.
Hmmm.
I don't see a difference. I believe abortion is very wrong and very horrific, and I don't think it should be allowed, but I realize, too, that the laws have made it allowable--and I can't change that--
it's a daily battle for some of us to try to save unborn lives, without using laws to do it--
but not judge America's wars? Why not? You must believe that America is fighting for the freedom of people in other lands--
and if you believe that, you are haven't yet learned the truth.
Just as I can't convince others who think that a woman has a 'right to choose' that the unborn life inside her is not her possession--
I can't convince someone who believes the American military and American leaders have been giving freedom to people in the middle east--
that there has been no fighting for freedom, not for 50 years, not for 100--
But you aren't ready to see that--
and I know quite a few people who are not ready to see the wrongness, the violence in the act of abortion--
nothing I can do to change their minds either--
No abortion; no war. Defending oneself; well, I think that is a personal choice--
I respond:
I didn't say you couldn't judge America's wars, I said I don't have enough information to correctly judge whether its just or not in the eyes of God and frankly, neither do you, really the only person who does is God. Does that mean you can't express your opinion on the matter. Of course not, you are welcome to. But to pretend you are correct, and have correctly assessed the situation in the middle east is a tad arrogant of you. Which is further supported by your condescending use of phrases like " and if you believe that you haven't yet learned the truth", suggesting you have a complete truth, which you don't and "But you aren't ready to see that", again suggesting that your opinion is the correct one, and my lack of intelligence/understanding/willingness/wisdom/experience are preventing me from agreeing with you.
I went on to state, that in my opinion fighting for freedom is a righteous choice and abstaining from such a fight or allowing the slavery of others is a wicked one. You assumed that this meant I supported all of America's wars as fights for freedom. Which was an incorrect assumption.
And of course it is a personal choice, in fact everything is. But calling something a personal choice doesn't mean it isn't right or wrong. As I said, all decisions require discernment. I can't say its ALWAYS wrong to not defend yourself, because I can enumerate many scenarios in which choosing to not defend yourself is the correct choice. Similarly I can enumerate many scenarios in which defending yourself is the correct choice. It seems to me however, and again this is why I don't like this topic, that rather then taking a discerning approach to each conflict understanding the historical evidences, the historical triggers, the people involved their reasons, their justifications etc etc, passing judgement on the justice of the war as if you opinion is the truth is wrong. And suggesting that God sees the wars as unjust because you do is also wrong.
LDSPER responds:
@TeeKong, you are assuming a lot about what I am saying.
Yes, you are right; as you read it, I do sound arrogant. But, you see, I don't believe I know all the truth either.
I just know what feels very wrong. I am surrounded by ward and family members (not my husband or children and a few other relatives) who believe that Muslims are bad, Islam is dangerous and who have supported Bush and Obama in the wars in the middle east--
and I HAVE spent a lot of time researching; I have found a few things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYnDw1ReVhw
If you honestly believe there is not enough information to make even a slight judgement on the horror of this, then--
I find your inconsistency appalling. You believe in defending; are you ready to defend these babies and their mothers from white phosphorus, depleted uranium (other chemicals) and overly zealous American military planners, etc.--
Wherever you live, if this were happening in your hometown, a lot, what would you think? That you had no right to judge?
You are correct; as you read my words, I sounded as though I was 'righter' than you--
and I apologize for that. I don't know everything at all--
but I am deeply concerned about all the things being kept from me--
by the American military/government/MSM
I am the parent of a child who suffered shocking things in a 'foreign' orphanage--
I've seen things that, perhaps, you have not. But maybe not. If you've held a child (and loved a child and fed a child and been responsible for a child) whose early years were influenced by things that don't make sense (and that most Americans blame on anyone but American 'planners')--
then perhaps you would understand why I sound as though I know things you do not know. I apologize for that, if you have been to such places and done such things--
but I do know a few things--
even if I don't know it all--
and I do feel that I need to sound a warning--
Mormon did, when he related what the Nephites did to the Lamanite women--
perhaps you feel he was being too judgemental--
Well, that is your right--
If you must be offended by what seems to be my 'high' tone--
then there isn't much I can do. I won't stop sounding the alarm.
and I say, if you have the courage to watch that youtube (and others like it)--
and can still say that I say you are naive, if you believe the government's spiel on how *we* are helping people become free--
that you don't know the truth--
if you can't make that connection, then I am not sure what you are connecting.
You sound very wary of criticizing your 'own' government/culture--
except, of course, for abortion--
the wars might be right after all, in spite of those children, the chemicals, etc.--
People are more free over there--
yes, of course; keep saying that--
we know that's true; our leaders have told us that--
*sarcasm alert*
If you are 'protecting' someone who has gone over there and come home and told you all the 'good' things the American military has done--
then you are no less biased than I!
And you might need to be aware than plenty (even a few LDS, though they are rare) of veterans despise what has been done over there--
and are spending their energy trying to get the truth out.
People who have been there. Done things. Seen things--
felt things--
and do know a few things--
good heavens, I ranted and didn't make sense.
Sorry--
I can't edit--
I say your belief in what the 'government' says is naive; perhaps that is unChristlike of me--and, if so (I am not sure) I apologize--
and it is wrong of me to say that you don't know the truth--
though I am not sure what you are saying, quite--
you never come out and say it--
you keep saying how cautious *we* should be; how we can't judge, etc.--
Why not?
I do not pretend to know everything, and if I have implied that, I am sorry--
but I do know how I feel in my heart; I do know what I have prayed to know; I do know what I have been studying--
I hate it, all of it--
I come from a family of people who have had their share of war--
so I am not completely unqualified, but I find your caution in not calling a spade a spade a bit . . .
odd.
But then what I see as a spade, you may see as something else--
so there we are; can't agree--
if we don't, it's not rare. I have 'friends' (LDS) who rant about what a threat Muslims are--
so I've been outnumbered a bit myself--
but cautious as to calling evil what I see as evil, no I won't be.
And I am content to have God be my Judge.
I respond:
It's clearly an emotional issue for you.
However, let me clarify some things you got wrong.
I never suggested anyone else be cautious in their judgment, or if it was interpreted that way, then my poor writing skills are to blame. I did say that only God has enough information to judge whether the war was just or unjust and that the article and subsequent comments were judgmental generalization of a highly complicated issue.
So, as I originally stated, and provided the abortion example in order to help clarify. Rock’s position is an opinion based on assumptions around what makes for a just war (some of those assumption backed by his interpretation of scripture). I was demonstrating that the application of war could be expanded to include the war of thought that began in heaven and is ongoing here on earth. Thus, when he argues that the physical location and the offensive nature of the wars of the last 50 years are proof/truth/fact that the wars are unjust, I counter argued that the physical location is irrelevant and there are many more factors that account for the justness of a war that are not being addressed in his arguments.
Similarly, you asses because war causes horrible suffering it is proof/truth/fact that the war is unjust. Just wars cause as much horrible suffering as unjust wars do.
I summed it all up by stating that in my opinion for a war to be just, it must be fought for freedom. That extends to fighting for others freedom as well. Now, you interrupted that to mean that I support the government/military and believe it when it tells me the wars we fight are just because we are fighting for freedom, which wasn’t ever anything I said, just a projection of the person you assume I am based on how I’ve taken a perceived different view on an issue that is so apparently emotional for you, I then took offense(in your words “If you must be offended by what seems to be my 'high' tone—“) because you began projecting your personal understanding, belief and opinion as proof/fact/truth . In fact, I never took offense. I pointed it out so you would stop doing it because it wasn’t constructive to the discussion (though based on your subsequent rant even pointing it out failed to prevent it, though it did at least prompt an apology once your rage wore off).
I do not feel Rock was being too judgmental, nor do I think you are. I think you’ve based your opinions on personal experience/knowledge/understanding etc etc. That is good. I’m fine with that, what I don’t like about these types of discussions is that there is a projection of opinion as fact/truth/proof. Rarely do I feel that Rock projects opinion as fact. I think in most of his articles he does a good job of presenting ideas and information separately. Here is information x and this is how I interpret information x. In this case however, he has failed to accomplish that. He has spoken as if he were God. He has projected his personal opinion that War is evil/bad/of satan as if that is what God has said. He does so by discounting another’s interpretation of the scriptures as wrong, and his own interpretation as correct. The scriptures contradict themselves all over the place, so arguing your interpretation is right and another’s is wrong is all opinion, even if the scriptures didn’t contradict themselves arguing interpretations is arguing opinion. Which is why I started my comment with “Arguing that the physical locations of the wars make them unjust is a limited and literal interpretation of the scriptures”, because I recognized that it was Rock’s interpretation and I wanted to demonstrate that I didn’t think his interpretation was wrong, just that he could expand the lesson to fit more than just the physical location.
There is nothing wrong with arguing opinion. We do it every day and we should do it every day, it helps us learn new information, exposes us to new ways of thinking, it helps enlighten us. What prompted my comment in the first place, and what I have repeated multiple times since, is that I do not like these discussions because it is common during discussions like this, for people to present opinions as facts/proof/truth. And in my opinion that is what Rock has done with his article and there are a number of commenters who have done the same.
